How the businesses began

Alison and Katherine: Hi, Lesley. How are you? How are you? Well, good, thank you.

Lesley: Good, thank you so much for being here. I think it's gonna be a great chat. We're gonna be very candid. We're gonna just get straight into it. So I'm going to start with you Alison, what made you open the Kilted Cake Company?

Alison: So my company's been open since March 2015 and it was never ever meant to be. My youngest daughter at the time had just started primary one and she told her full class that mommy was going to make cupcakes for her birthday party.

Lesley: Ahhh! Go on right in and in again!

Alison: Right and had no idea, had never baked or made a cake in the whole life before. And she had done her research, she'd been on AB and it was all Beauty and the Beast themed and she's found great cupcake cases and little edible toppers. So yeah, it was over in me to produce the goods. It just started from there, it kind of snowballed four weeks after that. It's my eldest daughter's birthday, so of course, she wanted then the cupcakes. So it snowballed from there, it was never ever going to be weddings and some of my friends still after this day that this is how my business has ended up and because it was literally gonna be cupcakes let's do this for a couple of years and that will be the kind of fun.

Lesley: What about you Katherine? Because that's an incredible story! You built a whole business on cupcakes from 2015 that's incredible!

Katherine: Well, I am doing work on my website so I'm having to think about my business and I think I have been doing cakes for about 20 years. Wow.

Lesley: Professionally or just started as friends and family.

Katherine: No, it started again. It started, my daughter, my son couldn't care less about cakes, but…

Lesley: Unless he's eating them.

Katherine: No, my family are a bit fed up with cakes. I don't know when he was younger, but everybody else did. Yeah, it started my daughter again, sort of like producing cakes, sorry, cake pictures of what she wanted. And I mean, I don't know when Katie's cakes came into the mix, but at some point doing cakes for her birthday and there was no pressure every year. Oh, what's Louise's cake going to be like? And I'm like, oh my goodness. And I mean, the stresses and the things that I did, you know, if I knew what I was doing then, it might have been a whole different story, but yeah, and I really liked it, and then sort of like word of mouth friends, family, and I started doing it.

Katherine: I remember selling cupcakes at Louisa's school. And then I thought, quite like this, and I did some training with Paul Bradford of Cake Flix. He is my hero, and I think anybody that's in the cake world probably knows who he is. And so it was a night school, and I'm still friends with people I met on that course, and no idea the year it was, 15 years ago or something, and he was doing a wedding cake course, and again, my friends, I have the patience of a gnat.

Katherine: And they laugh at me, you know, I have patience to make sugar flowers and to do all the things I do now, and he had a wedding cake course, and I sort of said, am I good enough to go in it? And he said, of course, of course, and you know, it's one of the best weeks of my life.

Lesley: Really?

Katherine: It was so good. You're in.

Lesley: Don't mind you have kids, right? It was one of the best weeks of my life.

Katherine: No, if we take them out of the equation, it was just amazing and we could just do cakes and do what we wanted and Paul was really supportive and trying things, learning things. I mean, I did modelling and I found out that there was such a thing as modelling fondant, you know, whereas it took me about a week to make a model previously because I was using the wrong soft fondant. And yeah, I did the course and loved it. Loved wedding cakes and I think decided in about 2019 that it would be solely wedding cakes.

Katherine: One of the business was before but it was just wedding cakes. Right, okay. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't end it and then thingy it. But you know, that wasn't a bad thing for me because it allowed me to spend time on the business and think about the business and got a website up and running and things like that. So I didn't waste the time. I mean, I was supposed to declutter and tidy the house in COVID, but it's still not done. That's OK.

Katherine: I've got a website and social media. Great website and social media platforms. Absolutely.

Finding your wedding cake style

Lesley: So, there's questions to both of you, obviously. What is the sort of most, what is it people buy? Is it like a two tier, a three tier, a four tier, what's the trend just now for wedding cakes? That you're finding, is there one, is there not one?

Katherine: There are trends, I'm not really getting couples that are asking me for the trends.

Lesley: Okay, they just want their own independent.

Katherine: Yeah, and I think, probably speaking from both of us, couples that come to us, they come to us because they like our style.

Lesley: Yeah, because you're designers, you're cake designers. Like so you're sketching out, you're doing the whole shooting shabang And then it's like, it's bespoke to the couple, isn't it? Yes.

Alison: I think there's so much choice now within the wedding industry that people know who it is that they're looking for. If they're looking for a kind of smaller vintage cake, there's girls that are excellent at doing that. They wouldn't necessarily comp myself for that because I would specialize in fondant cakes. So people, as Katherine said, that were kind of design led, looking for someone to kind of bring through something maybe a little bit different from the norm, would be the kind of clients that would come to us.

Alison: But yeah, there's just so much choice just now for couples. It doesn't need to be traditional. It can be something, you know, the tiramisu tower trend is in just now. So yeah, it really just depends what everybody's looking for.

Lesley: Yeah, so I mean, you wouldn't turn somebody away if they just wanted like two tiers though, or a tier, or like it's really just bespoke to them.

Alison: It's just exactly that. It's just what the couple's looking for. And actually, once I get an inquiry through, it's let's find out about your day, let's find out about exactly, and let's find out about how many guests you actually have coming, because that plays a huge part in what you're looking for. And clients as well, sometimes, you know, they'll be able to send you in pictures that they've seen maybe from yourself, from your social media websites, or if they've been doing research on Pinterest or something, and we can say, oh, that's far too big.

Alison: However, you can still have it. going to cost you a bit more money and you know we can kind of just proportion out what you need as actual cake or let's take that idea and let's turn it into something that actually works for you and let's try and save you a bit of money.

Lesley: Yeah and what about you Katherine?

Katherine: I think it's really, I think we're two peas in the same pod as Alison's saying. I mean I used to at the start of sort of like doing wedding cakes I would get inquiries and it's like want this and it's like have you looked on my website just do a little bit of due diligence and research the start off I was like yeah okay and then I wasn't really happy doing it it's not my style yeah and whereas now I'll be honest with couples and it's like if you want a particular style so I'd still get the occasional one for a Lambeth cake and I don't really do that yeah and

Lesley: And for people that don't know Lambeth cake.

Katherine: Oh, piped cakes, buttercream piped cakes, sorry.

Lesley: We're not technical here. You're going to have to bear with us.

Katherine: Yeah, so that's something, although I did do one recently and quite enjoyed it, which I was quite surprised at myself for, but anyway, if somebody's looking for a particular type of cake, style of cake, that I don't do, I'll say that to couples. I don't do it, but here's people that will.

Lesley: And it's funny because I would never have said that. assume like everybody else assumes that if you make cakes, you make all cakes and that's not the case about like photography. So you get a very specific style. So I would probably then say that you guys are probably very contemporary, very cutting edge and your style, I think these are. I love your style of design of cakes. But yeah, I wasn't aware that I just assumed the energy could come and say I want a wedding cake and you would just, you would just knock that at the park, but no, you're saying it is very bespoke, very, yeah, it's very specific to each business, which is great because it means that there's lots of good choice for couples

Alison and Katherine: and the cake-making world in Scotland is all fabulous, we all know each other, so we know who's good at doing what and we can vent each other. And if we don't have the date, for instance, we'll say try somebody else, but normally we would reach out to Alison, normally it's the other way round, but reach out and say have you got the date available so that we're not sending somebody off in a wild goose chase.

Lesley: It's collaborative, I think, but couples don't really know what they're looking for a lot of the time. Absolutely. They probably think they know.

Alison and Katherine: Yes, or they think they should know, so it's just encouraging them to make that initial inquiry and we will lead them from there. Yeah, I think for couples it's good to have that initial do I want a fondant cake, do I want a buttercream cake, because that really is your starting point when it comes to finding a designer. Absolutely. Because some like ourselves we just specialise in fondant, some will specialise in buttercream and some will do both. So that really is the best way to start out, kind of have a good idea and if you're not sure then send the pictures over and we can get you that way.

Lesley: it though, isn't it? There's got to be a starting point. Absolutely. You've got to have a starting point and then from that, that's obviously when you grow it into obviously what their vision is or their dream for their, you know, how their cake's going to look, etc. So that's exciting. But it's not just vanilla now that we do, it's not just Madeira cake. Oh no. Talk us through all your flavours. I love it.

Flavours and personal choices

Alison: I think there's about 15 on my website and And I'll always say that is not like the end of it. That's the 15 that are the most popular. But yeah, we have like the classics, the vanilla's and the chocolates and the lemons. And then we have kind of some, I call them Marmite flavors. You either love them or you don't. And cherry Bakewell, definitely one of them. And normally if my couples get that, that'll be the first one that they'll say, maybe no, and it's always the one that they pick.

Lesley: Oh really?

Alison: And then on my menu, I have some Scottish flavor. so [unclear] and tablet so there's like the list is endless when it comes to flavors pretty much anything as possible.

Lesley: And what about you Katherine?

Katherine: So I think I've got about 12 flavors but I think lemon and it's a bit like Marmite too, lemon and elderflower now that's one of my favorites and people are like I don't think I like lemon and then they get it. But you taste it with the elderflower. And then they taste it and they're like what can we change it and I'm like absolutely. Sticky toffee is another one, and what's the other one that's quite popular? It's white chocolate and raspberry, that's another one.

Katherine: And I've also, I do a pistachio and rose water and I do black pepper, black pepper and strawberry and balsamic compounds. Something like that, I know exactly what it is.

Lesley: I'm going to put you both on the spot here. Did you bring me cake today?

Alison and Katherine: No, we didn't.

Lesley: Oh my God. That was very rude, I don't know. Oh my God, you're talking about elderflower and all these lovely… And I'm like, are you giving me that cake?

Alison and Katherine: Next time, next time. Just talk to us about that. I'm not going to hear this podcast. I like it. I like it.

What goes into the price of a cake

Lesley: So talk us through pricing structure because there's a real stigma, I think, with pricing structure, which it kinda annoys me because people, people, yeah, because it's only, I'm only saying that because I've obviously been in the industry for 34 years, and I know what goes into creating a cake. It's not a case of like somebody phones and goes, can you bake me a three-tier cake? And you go, yeah, no problem at all. And you just whisk out your thingy and then within like a couple of hours, it's made.

Lesley: That's all nonsense. So talk us through the process of like your eggs, your flour, like are you buying that in a bulk? Are you having to go to the supermarket? Do you have suppliers? Do you have like, and then the time it takes from start to finish. Again, it'll depend on whether it's one tier, two tiers, three tiers, and the intricate details. But kind of talk us through that because that's really where the pricing structure comes from. It's your time. It's time.

Alison and Katherine: Well, I think time more than anything. It is time. because people think that it's just eggs, flour, milk, eggs, flour, sugar, and butter, and you just chuck it in the oven and it comes out all decorated, but it actually isn't. Absolutely not. Cake is always the final bit that you see. Yeah. It's everything before that you join and the process of making a cake starts right from that very first and quiet, eh? 100%. Because in order to know what we're making, we need to meet with our couples, we need to have consultations, we need to do design work.

Lesley: And that's your time. Yes. That's part of your business model. Absolutely. So that's not free. No. Your time is not free because you're a business. Yes. And that's what people don't understand. That's a misconception. So I think it's really important to, sorry I cut you off there, but sorry carry on.

Alison: But you know the price of ingredients as well over the past couple of years, like chocolate for example, you know 15 kilos of chocolate used to come in at about 74 pounds. It soared to nearly 230 pounds. Thankfully it's starting to come back down again but that's just one ingredient and that's Belgian chocolate. I know speaking for both myself and Katherine you know we use high-end premium products. It's always butter that's in our sponges and butter creams and it's the very best of jams.

Alison: It's not the supermarket owned brands. There's not anything wrong with that but the way that we've positioned our business is to be high end, luxury and for that has to be the ingredients that go along with that process.

Alison and Katherine: Absolutely, yeah, no, totally. They're not all available in your supermarket, you know, so some of the things we can get in the supermarket, you know, but we go down the route of trying to do locally.

Lesley: I think that's what the perception is though, that you're getting in your car, you're nipping to, you know, Marks & Spencer's or whatever supermarket because there's lots. And obviously just, you know, you're going in, you're buying your dozen eggs or two dozen eggs, whatever it is, and you're flouring. And that's not the case. It's a bulk buy because you've got like so many weddings throughout the year.

Alison: Yeah, I would say the only things that we can possibly bulk buy are our fondant and our Belgian white chocolate. I personally would go most weeks and buy butter, sugar, flour to make sure that everything's absolutely fresh. For clients, I don't have those type of ingredients lying about the house and because of this so much variation, if someone was to pick a vanilla sponge and a sticky toffee sponge, they're two completely different sets of ingredients that I need in the house.

Alison: So I'm not wanting stuff that's lying about, I'm wanting stuff fish for all my clients.

Lesley: Yeah and equally if they're having like different tiers with different flavors, that's three different processes. So it's not just one process for this beautiful tiered cake, it's three different stages and then once you've done that and I'm assuming it's either fondant or like you can talk us through the process, I'm certainly napping my cakes, I know they look all beautiful, but that's probably the extent of my knowledge.

Baking structure and finishing

Katherine: The reality as well, with the three different tiers, it's like you have to clean up in between. So that's another course that people don't think about. And I think we're similar, I think. And it's like, you start off with the bake. And then I personally, once the bake is done, and then I put it in the fridge overnight, so it just firms up and sets. I do tall cakes, Alison does even taller cakes. So it's tried and tested recipes that we know will stand up because the day that I hate the most is the sort of cutting, filling, and ganacheing because it's so messy.

Katherine: Messy, messy if we are. So I've got like four layers of sponges standard, can do more, and then you do a ganache dam and then fill it with whatever filling they want. And then it's a Belgian chocolate ganache shell, and then the fondant underneath. My background's architecture, I'll say to couples it's structured within an inch of its life. You know, it's like the foundations have to be good to get the polished finish. And you know, so often people say, oh, I want just a plain cake.

Katherine: And I was like, I say elegantly simplistic because that is probably more difficult than some of the things because there's nowhere to hide.

Lesley: I was just about to say that because it needs to be perfect.

Katherine: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely perfect. And then you think it's perfect and then you go to a venue and they've got a different lighting and you see a wee air bubble, you know, so the acupuncture needle comes out. That's how perfectionist we are, you know? And it's like, nobody else might see it, but we see it. So, you know, we do that. But, so that is the sort of like the basic cake. And if they want any texture or sugar flowers or anything else at that, that is what costs over and above the sort of like the starting from prices.

Katherine: It is time. And I do say that to my couples and I'm pretty sure you will as well, you know? So, we have to sort of like…

Lesley: You're educating.

Katherine: Educating them, and I mean, quite often my couples say to me, I didn't know there was so much to cake, and it's like, well, you know, the serious bit is allergens. We need to be all over that, which we are. Oh, absolutely. And then, you know…

Lesley: And all your hygiene certificates. Absolutely. And all of that, again, people don't see that. That's a cost to you. Buying your equipment, that's a cost to you. Like, whether it's the, I don't know, is it piping? Like, all the wee nozzles and everything else that you have to buy in order to get it.

Katherine: Well, for me, it's the sugar flower cutters. And I've got a cupboard that's got over 1,000 pounds worth of sugar flower cutters. So there you go. And I probably only use about 20% of them. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. You know, so there's things like that. But I mean, I remember somebody saying, you know, you're not paying for the, well, they say 30 minutes it takes to do whatever you're paying for the 10 years experience. So it's taken us 10, 20 years to be able to do what we do.

Katherine: 100%.

Alison and Katherine: I allow roughly five hours per tier just to get it baked, cut, filled, and ganached. And that's probably still being too light. And that's something I maybe need to review, because does that include going to the shops, washing up afterwards, ordering in the ingredients as they have to sit in front of the computer, because we can't get everything. And I bet you get it, it's no. No, probably not.

Lesley: And your admin time, and that's not, these are billable hours. like they absolutely are and it's all the things that people don't see so even just you're replying back to an email like the couple has received that email but probably not appreciated that that's your time and your time is precious your time is paid for but they're not seeing that so

Alison and Katherine: I would say it's not just the couples I think it's other industry suppliers to think oh it's just cake you know and it's like we're doing it for a hobby some some of the comments you get you know but I mean and my reply would be you try it coming coming to a day in the life of Katherine and Alison yeah I think a lot the couples win because I always talk through my timelines with my couples and we didn't realise how long it would take because we've got our bake day let the cake rest thinking ash day let that farmer thing set a fondant day the same again and then the decoration the decoration can be sometimes quite minimalistic it can be you know really something that takes hours and hours, a lot of wafer paper detail, sugar flowers and then it could be involved another decade, eight and eight and then it's a delivery date and depending on where that delivery is, it could be somewhere local, you're there back in a couple hours or you could be away at you know seven o'clock in the morning not be back to five o'clock at night.

Lesley: But then you've also got to think about how you're transporting the cake because it could could be a fragile thing, like it could be a wee bump in the road or like bottles or whatever. So there's all these things again that, you know, they just know that they want this cake and that's all they see and then they see the price. They don't see the labour and the years of experience because it's a wee bit like when you first leave school and maybe you go to college or university, you then come out of there, you'll start at the bottom and then work your way up, and as you work your way up you then get more money.

Lesley: And unfortunately people are probably, I don't think, seen that for cakes, they're don't seen that level of expertise that you've done the 20 years, the 15 years, that's experience. That needs to be paid for, it absolutely has to be paid for. So I think when some people say, oh I mean it's £650 for a wedding cake and I'm like yeah, but do you know what you're getting for that? That's actually really good.

Katherine: I think our couples probably will appreciate that because right from the start we, as Alison said, we lay out the process, what's involved, so what their value for money is if you like. And I think, again, we and loads of other people we know are very guilty of over-providing. You know, it's like if it doesn't quite look right, well maybe do something else. You know, I mean, at the start of my wedding cake journey it's like, oh, you know, I don't want to deviate from the design, whereas now I know that couples trust me that if something needs done and you'll be the same, if something needs done, they trust us to do it, you know.

Katherine: Could you do the experience?

Alison: I know, and that could be an amendment to the sketch as well. I always say to the couples, you know, this is what we're going to work towards, however, sometimes when we start decorating, sometimes it doesn't look quite right, so our couples trust us to make that decision, move it if the decoration needs moved and turn up with, you know, the final

Alison and Katherine: I love it when couples say, just do what you want. Oh, that would be great. It's good, hasn't it? Too often, but I love it. Normally, again, similar, we sort of like guide them. And there was a bride that came in and she's like, I've dreamt of my wedding cake for like 20 years. I know exactly what I want. And that was the initial discussion. And then when we came to do the final design consultation, she'd gone completely off-piste. So I never take it for granted.

Alison and Katherine: I always sit down at the final design consultation thinking, What are we going to create? You know what, it's exciting, it's exciting.

Lesley: And that's it, though, it's passion, isn't it? I think when you're such a creative person, which obviously you guys are, that's real passion. And I think when you're able to sit a couple down, because like you say, it's almost like going in for a wedding dress or, because they've never done this before. It's not like going into a supermarket and picking up a cake off the shelves, which bear in mind, they're mass produced in a factory. What you're offering is a very bespoke service.

Lesley: It's a one-off. Like, you know, like-

Alison and Katherine: And it would be great for people to come away from the, how much is a wedding cake? Because the wedding cake is the final product. It should be more, how much is it to work with you? Absolutely. Because-

Lesley: The better question, isn't it?

Alison and Katherine: It's part of the process. We do so much work before. And we also give them cake samples as well. You know, that's an added experience in the cake boxes and the stickers and the amount of time that they take as well as, you know, incredible. And we don't have them kind of sitting about the house. They're all baked fresh to order because we want people to experience the quality that we give out to our clients.

Lesley: Oh, because that's your reputation.

Alison and Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. That's the starting point, you know, like changing or sort of getting the flavours and then they've been able to select what they want for their day. That's the starting point. And then from that right, okay, we've got that. So is it a two-tier cake? Is it three, four, five? Like, however big you go. How big? Yeah.

Statement cakes and display tiers

Lesley: What's the biggest cake you've ever made?

Alison: I think about seven tiers. Oh! But then my cakes are very different. I've kind of changed my style a few years ago, so I kind of follow a modern style now. So mine's are kind of tall and narrow, which involves more cake to get the portions. So yeah, my clients can get a really kind of statement look for that, whereas Katherine would proportion maybe slightly different from me, and maybe not involve so many. But yeah, for me, about seven. Yeah, woof.

Katherine: Well, I think five for real cake, but about 13 or 14 for a dummy cake. Yeah, we've won big one dummies, I have it. There was a trend, and I just wanted to have fun. And I'm just really annoyed at myself because I never got a photo of me next to the cake. Now I'm five foot eight, and I had to stand in a stool to put the top two tiers on. No. Yeah. And I took a smaller version of that, I took a couple of tiers out, and I took it to a wedding fair, and it was a real talking point, you know?

Katherine: And they're like, how would you do that in real cake? And I said, just make it in real cake, doesn't it? Yeah.

Lesley: Cause is it polystyrene, is that right? So you work with polystyrene to obviously not be…

Alison and Katherine: Sort of like most environmentally friendly, but we recycle. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And would you, so see if somebody wanted a beautiful cake, let's say you're seven tiers, would you have all seven tiers as cake or would you put some of that as polystyrene and maybe the top ones and there is cake or… So mine was all cake. Mine was all cake. But it really depended on the guess numbers. The guest numbers is really what factors in how big do you need your cake to be.

Alison and Katherine: And that's fair enough. So they maybe want a huge big statement cake then, but they maybe only need two or three tiers. I think there's also a misconception when it comes to the kind of fake tiers of cake that they are going to be cheaper to have. So I would love this beautiful statement cake. But they're polystyrene and you've still got to decorate it. So, aha, people think that it's so much cheaper to have that as an option, and there is a little bit of a saving, but again, it comes back to time.

Alison and Katherine: The time that we need to decorate that, the ingredients, aha. Absolutely. Aha. That urban myth did not start with a cake maker. No. No. You know what I'm saying? Yes. No two words said. Yes. No two words said.

Working with your cake designer

Lesley: And obviously, like, we've kind of touched on a lot of the points that I wanted to raise with you. But what would you sort of say to couples like obviously coming into you like what expectations should they have because I think sometimes when they don't they've never done this before they don't really know what they're looking for and they're coming to you for guidance and stuff like that like and more and more people I think definitely want to have cake for sure and they're getting more creative I think as well with our design which I'm Loving, I'm loving it, it's so good.

Lesley: I personally quite like the cakes, it looks like a cake at the front and then you kind of turn it round and it's got this whole other dimension to it. Yep. It's bonkers but I love it. But yeah, so what would you say to couples coming to you for expectation wise?

Alison and Katherine: I think it's good for them to have an idea of the type of cake. Yeah. So whether that be buttercream, ganache, fondant finish, because that ultimately is gonna be who are they gonna look to work with. Have a look at social media profiles, have a look at websites, because that's gonna give you an idea as to style. Contact the person if you have images that you can send of what you're thinking about. That's great. But I could guarantee that what you initially send isn't gonna be the cake that you're gonna end up with.

Alison and Katherine: Because change change, minds change, which is why we leave our consultations so late on, because we want all the colour schemes to be in place. We really want to hear about your day and try and bring as much or as little of your day into your cake as what you possibly want, whether that be colour, whether it just be a design detail, where is it going in the venue, how are we going to style that cake? And it's not by making you spend extra money on how are you going to style the cake.

Alison and Katherine: We're great believers and we purpose what you've got already within the room, you know, bring your bookies into it, remove, you know, mood boards, not mood boards, even before your plodals are out.

Lesley: Yeah, absolutely, and for the dress as well. A lot of people have got lace dresses, they may be wanting that to be mimicked on the dress. That all takes time, that's all.

Alison and Katherine: Absolutely. But there's nothing really that can't be done in cakes. I've seen some incredible things being done in my cake makers. Honestly, the… Defies gravity sometimes. Yes! Amazing, I'm just waiting for a couple to go for that one.

Lesley: What's the craziest thing you've ever created?

Alison: I don't really think I've created anything. And I have had a couple that came with very strong primary colours that they were using in their reds and blacks and greens and reds and purples and they wanted all those incorporated in the cake and I'm sitting going, ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and they ended up with a champagne coloured cake, you know, because I thought that was not going to work, but you know that's for us to say, that's great, okay, that's fine, however, I don't think it's going to work, but what I think would work would be, and let's offer you this, and it's Not until you see the this, that the other one.

Alison: Oh yeah, well actually that's exactly what would that look like when I was 18.

Lesley: That's brilliant. And what about you, Katherine?

Katherine: So I created a five tier for this couple and the bride was an art teacher. And she sent me.

Lesley: Oh, no pressure.

Katherine: She sent me about 13 or 14 or 15 eclectic snippets that she wanted to incorporate in her cake. And I was like, oh my goodness, oh my goodness.

Lesley: That's a lot.

Katherine: And I thought, how on earth am I going to do this? And I think it took me about three weeks to come up with a design. And I think at the time I was sort of like very much in my minimalist period, but I think they were strong ideas so you could not have too many of them. So anyway, I came up with a design and I sent it over to her and two and a half weeks later I still hadn't heard back.

Katherine: And I thought, well, she hates it, she hates it. So I was politely just getting in touch to see it. Any comments if you want to change anything? and she came back and she's like, no, we love it. And I was like, oh, amazing, good for you, good for you.

Lesley: But again, that's where the experience comes from.

Katherine: Absolutely, and us having the confidence and that's something that we've built up, like I said, when we start a wedding cake journey, you don't want to deviate from what you've agreed with the client, but now, and I think the expectation is the client doesn't know what to expect a lot of the time and they think they need to know what cake they want. So I don't think that's why the current trend of leaving it till much later to get in touch just couples are very confused as to what they do.

Katherine: And so I would say, as Alison said, do your research, you know, are we the right fit for each other? But get in touch and have a conversation. And I think the relief on couples faces when, you know, we say you don't need to know. All we really need to know is the date, obviously, the venue, guest numbers. And now let's start the process. Absolutely. And it's supposed to, I'd say the allergens, a serious bit and I think you know it's supposed to be one of the sort of like more joyous things you know less stressful I think hopefully for the couple anyway so um yeah and we just lead them and I always say to my couples I'm at the end of an email if you've got any comments so always there you know you'll think it goes a bit like tumbleweed for a bit but I think it's the same like any supplier you know it's just you book and then the excitement kind of calms down and then towards getting towards the date, it ramps up and it's a bit exciting and stuff.

Booking your wedding cake

Lesley: What is the sort of lead time that somebody should be booking their cake? What would you suggest?

Alison and Katherine: It's different this year, I think. So it used to be, I mean, before I would be booked two, three years in advance. Yes. Whereas I am getting inquiries if you've got availability in two months' time. Wow, really? It's not just cakes, it's the industry has changed. I know it really has. And couples are leaving it later. Yeah absolutely. So I'm not taking it personally so there's maybe a better chance that I might have the date if it's a short lead-in but you know I didn't you know when I get two months it's like no and sometimes if a couple's like please help please and it's like well okay I can help but it will be a very simplistic design you know.

Alison and Katherine: Just you to the time. Yeah absolutely absolutely the decoration and then the diary as well. I mean we both only take on a limited number of commissions because we appreciate that this is probably the most expensive cake anybody's ever going to buy and it deserves our time and we need to relay that to the venue as well and other people that are talking first and things like that so that you know it's not shoved in a corner and then just wheeled out all cut up you know so and it's not that we necessarily feel it has to take pride of place or I do really but it is a showstopper.

Lesley: Absolutely and that's the cake is part of it's a showstopper first of all you've got the bride and groom or the groom and groom or the bride and bride whatever the permutation is and then it's like that cake is like a focal point in a room it's like so you see the beautiful room and the decoration and the design and everything that's beautiful but then there's the cake and and it's just, yeah, it's just positioned beautifully. It deserves its- It deserves its spot.

Lesley: Yes, absolutely.

Alison and Katherine: We've got that chat with a couple, you know? And the venue-

Lesley: And a great photographic opportunity as well.

Alison and Katherine: It has to be in the right place though because I've turned up at venues before and I've been like, where's the cake going? Oh no, please, not there. So always say to my clients as part of, when they come for consultation, is ask your venue, where is your cake going? Because you really want that cake to shine. You want people to see it, you want it staged, lovely, you know, you've spent a lot of money buying this luxury item, a real treat for your guests, and you know, you want them to start getting excited about it, you want to show it off.

Alison and Katherine: And so not in front of, you know, not in front of your band, or not behind a fire extinguisher or something like that. A beautiful place within the room, because I have been known to go and think, well, No, that's not ideal, but can we please move it here? And you know, you've always got your couple at the forefront of your mind because you want them to have that experience.

Lesley: And that is it as well. That is another experience that they're having is on their actual day, once they see the final product. So they know, they've kind of seen your… Do you sketch it out? Do you sketch the…

Alison and Katherine: Yeah, they get sketches.

Lesley: So you're sketching that out. They kind of see it on paper, but it's not the same as it is seeing it in the flesh.

Alison and Katherine: And it's lovely when I've actually seen, been fortunate to see quite a few of my couples actually at the venue when I've been building their cake and it's all been there. And the joy on their face. Oh, it's fantastic. And just listening to it. That's a special moment for us because we worry through the whole process. My goodness, we hope that they're gonna love it. We hope it's gonna look like exactly what they thought. And to actually get that connection with your couples is really special.

Lesley: It's a special moment for you, it's almost like closure, I did a great job, they employed me and I've delivered. And also just transporting a cake, I think would be just terrifying, like with me.

Delivery assembly and the venue

Alison and Katherine: I always say there's two types of driving, because the driving with the cake, I mean we can drive the same road every single day and no one notices anything. Put a cake in that boot, every single of potholes. It's like driving with a newborn and you go really, really slow and you feel every bump on that road and then the reliefs have the cake because you don't want it to be damaged. I mean we take all the cakes individually and we fully stack at the venue but yeah it's definitely two types of driving, normal driving and newborn baby driving.

Alison and Katherine: Oh wow, sometimes I have to take the cakes fully stacked. Oh no. Have you really? I have, yes. I used to do that but I've had a two year shoulder injury from lifting heavy cakes and normally Ian has to come and help lift it and it's central dialed and everything and there's advantages to that. That is more stressful driving. I mean I have driven up and down from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, know the road like the back of my hand. So I thought until I put a cake in the back of it and I'm thinking oh my gosh there's a camber.

Alison and Katherine: Oh there's this, there's that. But now, unless the design dictates that it has to be stacked, because we had to drive recently to Dumfries with a four-tier stacked cake. Wow. Yeah. Just because of the design. Yeah. Because I've loads of sort of like waves. No, absolutely. Absolutely. So, never complacent, but I don't know, comfortable is maybe too strong a point. Yeah. I mean, Alison, I went with Alison under delivery up to Aberdeenshire in the snow. Oh, that was horrendous. That was horrendous.

Alison and Katherine: I left the house no snow. I got halfway to meeting Katherine, who was coming with me. But you're Glasgow beast. So Glasgow is fine. And the place was white, and we were driving up, oh, we're driving up the motorway, and oh, it was just horrendous. I'm sure you guys could absolutely write a book on your experience. Oh, we could, yes. Yeah. Your experiences. So when I used to be a wedding planner way back

Lesley: in a previous life, it's funny because people used to come in with the cake boxes and say, there's the four tiers, or there's the three tiers, or there's the two tiers. And we'd be like, aha, in the back. So yep, just stack them, do it. And I'm like, but that's what happened. That's what used to happen.

Alison and Katherine: It's happened recently, one day and you were telling me. Oh really? Yeah, and the cake person, there was four tiers and they hadn't even doubled it for them. So the wedding planner was phoning a cake friend that delivered to the venue, which I find absolutely horrific, because it's my cake and it's like, if anything goes wrong, that's my reputation. 100%. So Miss OCD here, and it's like, I take it and it's like, do not move it. And there's a lovely company, Prop Options, that make lots of lovely separators and stuff like that.

Alison and Katherine: Nice. and just sort of like plates top and bottom and I was living to a lovely old castle and if you walked past it it was kind of and the wedding planner was having kittens and I was like no no it honestly back in architecture I've done this before and I will talk them through how to dismantle the cake and sometimes they brought their chef out to do it and I take sheets with me as well and I I know there's a few venues that have now started asking other cake makers for it and some venues say they don't even see the cake person.

Alison and Katherine: We have a legal obligation to tell them what the allergens are, but anyway, my cake, it's funny you saying about us the venue where the cake's going, I'm like where's the cake, where do you want the cake to go? Because I know the venues mostly, so I'm like there would be a better place you know. I think the client has to have a look in the room first to make sure that they're happy with it. We can give guidance if we've been to venues before and so actually hears better so next time you go why don't you have a look at that please and we can do that but at the end of the day it does to come down to the client what they want.

Quick fire questions

Lesley: 100% so in our podcast we do these sort of quick fire questions so just whatever comes into your head just shout it out. What makes you happy?

Alison: So spending time with the girls, having a little drink, having a little praseco or a coke too.

Lesley: Great answer! Katherine!

Katherine: Mine's exactly the same, our son lives away, not away, but he doesn't live at home anymore so the chances of four of us and the dog being together are pretty slim these days so when the four of us and the dog get together we could sometimes go for a walk around North Berwick Beach. Yeah it's nice.

Lesley: What makes you sad?

Alison and Katherine: missing family or friend events because I'm working. Oh, I know, I know, yeah. Animal cruelty. Yeah, yeah. Devastating. Yep. These people should be locked up for life. I'll say no more because I'll get them. No, no, no, that's another podcast. Yes!

Lesley: Favourite things to do in life?

Alison and Katherine: Skiing. Oh. With the family. Yes. Oh, holidays. Yes, yes. Hobbies. going to the gym. Do you? Yeah. That's my commitment to myself. Good for you. Good for you. You've got to have time for yourself. Oh yes, we do like an afternoon tea. Want to eat more cake? Yes, we do love a afternoon tea. That's what nobody else has made.

Lesley: Yes, that would definitely have 100%. I was going to say favourite foods. I kind of feel as if I've got to ask you that. What's your favourite food?

Alison: I am an absolute foodie. Foodie through and through, I love going out, but my favourite would definitely be a Christmas day dinner. So through and through, that's my favourite.

Alison and Katherine: Mine too, but feeling that, biscuits and cheese and pork and chutneys and grapes and anything else that goes along.

Advice for couples planning their wedding

Lesley: Amazing. Good answers, good answers. So final words to wedding couples. What would your advice be for somebody who's just started the the planning process, so whether it's to do with cakes or whether it's just to do with your experience of people planning a wedding, what would be your final words to them of hints and tips?

Alison and Katherine: I would say don't be afraid to start talking to your suppliers, all of us, not just cakes.

Lesley: Actually I think meeting suppliers is so important, especially if you're spending, maybe not so much your sales, but certainly if you're spending all day with them, if they're with you like photographers your videographers like definitely meet them for sure.

Alison and Katherine: They have to get to know us as well to know that they can trust us too. 100% you know 100% yeah. I always say don't feel rushed and to booking somebody yeah really do your research yeah make sure that you're comfortable with the style of work that they're doing and but yeah never ever feel rushed into booking a supplier.

Lesley: No absolutely good advice good advice it's been an absolute pleasure having you guys here. Thank you so much for coming. Do you feel we've covered everything? Is it anything else you want to share with our audience, sir?

Cutting serving and enjoying your cake

Alison and Katherine: Cake wastage. I think that's probably a good one because we hear quite a lot. We're not going to have a cake because nobody eats it. And secretly we'll laugh inside because there's a number of reasons that that could happen. Weddings have evolved and changed so much. We're looking to put on a lot more entertainment for our guests and make it a real fun day for everybody. Personally, I think the cake's cut at the wrong time. I don't think your cake should be cut after you've had your wedding breakfast.

Alison and Katherine: I think your cake should be cut [unclear] before you go away and get your pictures taken.

Lesley: Okay, that's good advice.

Alison and Katherine: Because your cake can be served to your guests, because probably most of them have come and they've not had anything to eat and they're starving so they'll have a little canapé with a drink and your cake can be served then and then if there's any cake left it can be brought out again at night time for their evening buffet and have little cake boxes beside it so that someone's wants to take some cake away home with them and they absolutely can.

Alison and Katherine: And we tell wedding venues how cakes should be cut. Sometimes they're not cut, sometimes they're cut a little bit smaller than what we've actually indicated, which might be waste, but another thing that you could ask your supplier is, do you bake my cake fresh? Because I always say to my clients, I always bake fresh the weeks, which means they can in turn then freeze up, freeze their cake for three months, and I always say, keep a lot about your cake, and I write that on my handover to the venues, because it's always lovely when you get your photos through, you can take some cake out, crack open a lot of time, You can share and have a little bit of heart, yeah, so definitely I think cake-cutting's at the wrong time, with people, you know, absolutely.

Lesley: We used to cut the cake, as you rightly say, after the wedding breakfast, but we'd always serve it on platters to each of the tables as well, just in the centre of the tables, because if you put it out in the evening buffet, then people would kind of bypass it.

Alison and Katherine: times the evening before I'm here and it's not happened to 10, half past 10, 11 o'clock at night. And by that time, some of your guests have started leaving already because they're tired. It's been a long day for them. So you really want to make use of what you've got available for your guests. It's food. Who's not going to love a bit of food?

Lesley: Absolutely. So yeah, so we used to put it in the centre of each of the tables just because people would just naturally nibble on it. Absolutely. good tips and great advice that you've been giving us today. So yes, so if anybody wants to get in contact, either with Katie's Cakes or the Kilted Cake Company, then just get in contact with us and we'll give you their details. But yes, it will be in the bio at the bottom as well, but it's been an absolute pleasure, ladies.

Lesley: Thank you so, so much for coming.

Alison and Katherine: Thank you very much. It's been great.